Episode 12: Taking a Step Back to Take a Step Forward with Dr. Celina Berg
Dr. Celina Berg is an Assistant Teaching Professor in the Department of Computer Science here at the University of Victoria. Celina completed her education at UVic, with her graduate research falling in the intersection of software engineering principles and complex software systems with a focus on parallel computing. As a tenure track instructor at the University of British Columbia, Celina spent four years teaching a range of computer science courses and developing a curriculum to support active learning within lecture, leveraging videos, and programming tools. During her time at UBC, Celina was heavily involved with supporting first-year student experience, acting as a professor in residence, and participating in and leading university orientations. In Celina’s current position at UVic, she has started to develop curriculum to support the active learning lecture approach that she used at UBC.
"Yes, it's important to have goals and a plan, but it's also okay to step back and reflect on what's happening and readjust those goals and those plans."
Dr. Celina Berg
Waving, Not Drowning
Rebecca Gagan: Hi everyone. I’m Rebecca Gagan, and this is Waving, Not Drowning, a UVic Bounce podcast. Today’s episode is being recorded on the unceded and unsurrendered territories of the Wsáneć and Lekwungen peoples.
In today’s episode, I talk with Dr. Celina Berg, an Assistant Teaching Professor in the Department of Computer Science here at the University of Victoria. Celina completed her education at UVic with her graduate research falling in the intersection of the principles of software engineering and complex software systems with a focus on parallel computing. Celina spent four years as a tenure track instructor at the University of British Columbia, teaching a range of computer science courses and developing curriculum to support active learning within lecture, leveraging videos and programming tools. During her time at UBC, Celina was heavily involved with supporting student first-year experience, acting as a professor in residence, and participating, and leading university orientations. In Celina’s current position at UVic, she has started to develop curriculum to support the active learning lecture approach that she used at UBC. She’s really looking forward to being back on campus with students and to being able to introduce some programs to further support the student first year experience.
In our conversation, Celina shares with me her experience of being an undergraduate student and needing to take a step away from her university studies. During that time, she engaged in some other really important life experiences, like starting to raise a family. And as she shares, it was also a time when she was able to reevaluate the direction of her studies and to determine that she didn’t actually want to return to the program that she had been studying but that she wanted to pursue a degree in computer science.
And so, as she shares at the age of 29, which is surprisingly called a quote-unquote mature student, she went back to university, but this time to a degree in computer science. She explains how she experienced so much joy but also some challenges being a mature student. And she shares so much wisdom and supportive words as she talks about her experience of reevaluating, pivoting, and really making room for changes of direction and changes of plan in her life. I’m Rebecca Gagan, here today, with Dr. Celina Berg, and this is Waving, Not Drowning.
Hi, Celina. It’s so nice to have you here today to talk with me. How have you been doing through all of this?
Celina Berg: Hi, Rebecca. Thanks so much for having me. This was great. I’m definitely missing being on campus, definitely missing seeing students and especially, you know, within the within class. I’m really grateful to be able to still facilitate the learning online and allow students to still continue to get their education and move their way towards their degree completion, but wow, it’s definitely a different environment.
Rebecca Gagan: Yeah. And how have you been doing personally through– now it’s been, wow–a full year we have been doing this. How have you been holding up?
Celina Berg: Oh, you know, I feel like the transition to online has made our job even maybe bigger than it was. And definitely trying to keep some consistency with the material that we’re teaching to students, but also trying to figure out how to do it in this online environment does definitely add to our workload. My husband’s great — tries to get me out for air every day. It doesn’t always happen, but that’s really important. I try to get exercise for myself; getting some exercise and actually getting my heart rate up, and it generates endorphins for me, and I feel, you know, I get this boost of energy, which is fantastic, but at the same time, I know I’m pulling some 12-hour days and 14-hour days like many of our students are and it’s hard to fit it in, but being cognizant of that and trying to find that balance is important.
Rebecca Gagan: Is there anything that you found particularly helpful or supportive this past year, Celina? Your pause suggests — you know; actually, there’s a lot of honesty in that. I’m actually trying to think about what has been helpful.
Celina Berg: I know, right? Well, and I guess I’ll go back to my husband. He’s lucky enough to still have a small office that he goes into, so he changes location from the morning to his work and then comes home. And you know, he’s been really good at reminding me that I need to get out and get air and change the scenery from just staring here at my screens, so I really rely heavily on him.
Rebecca Gagan: And I think in the same way, and I’ve said this before on this podcast, I think if I didn’t have a dog, I might not go outside at all. Like the dog needs to be walked, and she’ll come and sit in and look at me and remind me that I need to get outside. But that is this strange piece. Like I, I think you know, just staring at the screen so much, and again, I’ve said this before– this feeling of –a day will go by, and I’ll realize like I haven’t left my house. And I’m sure as you say, a lot of students feel the same way. And without those reminders to get outside and whether that comes from somebody, with whom you might be living or your dog looking at you, desperately wanting to get outside. It can be really tough to like to break that up and do the things that we know are important and that we know are good for us, but that somehow — the days just spill over into one into the next and suddenly it’s been three days, and you’ve not really left the house to do anything. So yeah, as I say, I just really appreciate your pause there and actually trying to think about what is helpful because I think that we’re told yes, like by everybody, get out, go for walks. And it’s okay, yeah. I grasp that that’s helpful. There’s just so much that’s needed right now that while a walk will do something, it won’t fix all of the things that are needed right now. And, yeah, as I say, I just really appreciate that thoughtful pause to try to–
Celina Berg: It’s interesting cause you say it like it’s “yeah, we know we need to do this. We know we need to go out, and I’m lucky enough to have someone to say, ‘Hey, let’s go'”. You know, one thing that I’m big into is lists, and my husband even makes lists for us on the weekend of the fun things we’re going to do or mixed in with the tours that we’re going to do, but for myself during the day, I’ve got to — that’s how I start out my day is I make a list of the things that I need to get done and I enumerate them and priority order and check them off. It gives me this sense of completion. But you know, adding that break, that mental wellness break, to your list is really important too.
Rebecca Gagan: Yeah, that it’s important to do. You know, something that is also in your day that you need to factor in and build.
Celina Berg: Absolutely.
Rebecca Gagan: Yeah. Add that to my list today, and the sun is shining, so absolutely I will be I’m getting out today. So, Celina, as I said, I’m so happy the chance to meet you this way and to talk with you, and as you know, this podcast is all about faculty really sharing their own student experience, their experience as being students, and also really sharing some of the challenges, some of the difficulties that they might’ve experienced as either undergrad or grad. And so, I’m really eager to hear your own story about being a student, and from the beginning to how you got to this point, being an Assistant Teaching Professor here at UVic.
Celina Berg: Wow. It feels like a very long journey, you know, but I feel bad, Rebecca, cause I’m going to start out with — like my experience. Wasn’t great and first year it was — I was young. I had moved to Victoria as a very young person on my own, away from home. No one to tell me to go to class. I would sleep through class at times, and then, I’d attempt to catch up by staying home from class. Because I thought I’ll just dedicate the time instead of going to lecture and quote unquote wasting those hours getting to class and coming from class. First-year it didn’t go well. The courses I passed were the ones I had the context for from high school because I was a fairly intelligent person that had some background, but I failed many courses, and so it didn’t go well, and I had to take a step back and go, “Okay. Am I responsible for the result? What can I do to change my learning strategies, to make sure that I’m doing better and making better use of my time?” That’s when I started with the lists and being more organized — making sure that I went to class because — and making sure that I made use of that lecture time like that’s where most of my learning happened, and I still needed to go after class and review and practice things–that was really important. Making use of that lecture time and making use of my instructor or my teacher, my professor as a resource, was something that really changed for me in my second year, and my grades took a huge uptick. Like it was like night and day, there was no failing classes, but my GPA was– it was very good in my second year. And I attribute that to, just again, scheduling your life, scheduling your, you know– making use of the resources that are there for you. I didn’t end up spending time playing catch up because I wasn’t missing lecture. That was like– I felt like I was spending maybe less time studying, but it was more focused time and just more efficient.
Rebecca Gagan: Was there a moment, Celina, like at the end of first year– so after you, obviously, took some time to reflect that wasn’t whatever you were doing had not worked. And so, I guess I’m just interested, and I think our audience might be interested to know, like what– was there something that kind of like catalyzed that shift for you, and what program were you in?
Celina Berg: I was in biochemistry. Yep. I mean, definitely, all the sciences. So, I guess at the end of first year. I was like, “okay, I don’t want to– I want to tap, finish my degree.” Like I wanted a degree, and if I don’t pass classes, i’m not going to be able to do that. And you know, and that was my motivation to become a better student.
Rebecca Gagan: Yeah. It sounds like that’s kind of a moment of reckoning where you actually got right down to the fundamentals. Do you want the degree or not? Yeah. Yeah. And if you wanted it, then something had to change in terms of how you were going about getting the degree.
Celina Berg: Right. then Rebecca, so I’m going to transition here, and it’s yeah– I decided that I knew I wanted a degree, and I knew that I had to change how I was doing things, so I did. And then it was really successful. Got a great co-op term; worked in Co-Op. I was like, Nah, this job kind of– I don’t really– this is not up my alley. I haven’t really liked doing this.
Rebecca Gagan: What was the co-op in?
Celina Berg: It was — I was working in an environmental lab, and it was– parts of it were great. But you know, I just– the pipetting, and the measuring, and the rinsing. And I just– it got maybe a little bit more too mundane for me. And maybe had I given the degree of, you know, a longer chance, that maybe that would have transitioned into something that was interesting to me, but what I realized was– when I stopped to reflect on– the reflection from first year to second year was okay. I know I need to pass these courses to get a degree. I wanted a degree. And the reflection from second year to third year was, what is it that I like? And I felt like I was more connected with the math, the physics, the organic chemistry because it was more, you know, the math side of things and the more mathematical side of things. The biology and the other form of sciences, I wasn’t as interested in. So, I was like, I’m not really sure that this is what I want to do, or you can understand what I want to do, so I actually took a break. And I didn’t actually complete that biochem degree.
Rebecca Gagan: And so that was after second year? Or third year?
Celina Berg: I started third year and then just stopped.
Rebecca Gagan: It’s so important, I think Celina, that you’ve shared here that. That work of reflecting on what you were doing in your degree happened in stages so that, you know, decide, “okay, I want a degree and then realized, but not this degree. Yeah, not this degree.” So, and I had another conversation with another faculty member, Jessica Rourke, and you know, we were talking about this very thing about how tough it is to make that decision because there’s so much pressure to stick something out, even if you don’t like it that okay. Oh no, no. Like you’re, that’s kind of failure if you walk away from the degree, even though, in some cases like you hate what you’re studying or like it makes you miserable. And so, you know that conversation with Jessica, which reminds me of what you’re sharing here, Celina is just like, you know, going to university isn’t something just to be survived, right? Like it’s — like students should have the chance to thrive. And I think that discourse around, oh no, no. You just stick it out at all costs. That doesn’t matter what’s going on or whether you like it or don’t like it. You just do it. And so, I think that it takes support, but also a kind of courage and an awareness that it’s your degree and that you get to choose what that’s going to look like and how what you’re going to study. So, tell me a bit more about that decision to step away from biochem.
Celina Berg: Yeah, that was part of my decision was related to realizing that this wasn’t a degree that I was maybe interested in, plus, life came into play. I actually got pregnant in my third year, and I felt like, you know, given I wasn’t really invested in the degree, I felt like I needed to take time and do the parent thing. And, for five years, I was at home with my kids. I worked I’m a little when they were a little bit older, but you know, I really focused on the parenting part of things. In the back of my mind, though, I always knew that I wanted a degree. I always wanted a degree. Luckily enough, I worked for a municipality in Victoria, and I was offered an internship; later on, my kids were probably, four and five at that point. And it was in an IT department, and I worked with a bunch of people that had computer science degrees, and I was like, this is really cool. And then I started investigating, and I was like, hey, you know what? Like all these courses that I already took in my Biochem degree, they fit for this degree. I could go do my undergrad in computer science, and I could probably finish that in a couple of years. And I thought, maybe I’ll do that.
So, I thought, ah, you know what, let me try a programming course. I’ll drive this first programming course and see how it goes. And definitely the learning curve was like, super steep, and it’s funny, I started school when both of my kids were in school, so I think my youngest was five, and my older one was six, and we were all going to school, and it was chaotic. Oh my gosh, it was crazy. But again, that lesson that I learned back in first and second year of, you got to schedule things, you got to make lists, you got to be — you just got to take and to take advantage of the resources that are there for you and, don’t skip class, and use your professors. I used all of those strategies, and I loved the programming. It was definitely, hard. And I looked around and some students in the class they’ve been programming for years, and I was like, wow, I have no idea what you’re talking about, but this is kind of cool and super frustrating, but then it would work, and then you’re like, oh wow, this is awesome. It’s the sort of highs and lows of learning, and I just, I was like, okay, I’m hooked. I got to finish this degree, so that’s what sort of got me back into school. And I was this 29-year-old student that had two kids. But you know, my fellow students were 18 and 19 and 20. And I still, was in study groups with them, work together with them, and they’ve explained things to me, and I’d explain things to them and worked on projects and, I’m sure I seem like the old person, but at the same time, I did develop a lot of friendships.
Rebecca Gagan: And, Celina, it sounds like, you know, going back as a mature student at 29, even using the word, I don’t know, like mature, even the fact that we designate — like at what point are you considered a mature student.
Celina Berg: But I was only — I could be 29 again. I would take it in a heartbeat.
Rebecca Gagan: I will gladly take the label. And you know, it sounds like it was a kind of chaotic time as you say, but that there were also a lot of joys that came with going back to school and making that decision, and that you were able to use some of the skills that you learned in second year, as you say. And so, one of the things that we’ve talked about a bit on this podcast is how the skills that you start to learn in terms of organizing your schedule and attending, class and all of those activities are life skills that will then help you as you mature and continue on in your life. And whether you have children or not, or enter into the workforce, all of those skills come back in a different way, perhaps, but that you’ll need to draw on them. And so, you know, figuring out sooner rather than later how to organize your life is such a key piece of it. It sounds like it really helped you when you went back with a busy family and needing to really organize your time for that second degree.
Celina Berg: Yeah, it did. It did, and definitely, those skills I learned definitely helped, but one thing that I felt as a 29-year-old student that I didn’t even in my second year, where I was successful in my classes, was the understanding of the relationship that I needed to develop with my professors, so coming out of high school, I saw teachers as a sort of authoritarian figure. They were telling me what to do and I was doing it and following instructions, but being a mature student, I realized that my professors were — I had this ability to use them as mentors and talk to them, have a conversation with them, visit them in office hours, even if I didn’t have questions about the material, just to learn about what they were doing, what their research was, what their paths were, you know, and their experiences.
And I felt that was really useful for me. And it opened up a lot of doors for me that I didn’t even really consider, you know, I was coming back to school, I had a young family. I was going to finish my degree in two years and be out. And then I was going to go get a job. That was the plan. And after talking to some of my professors, I ended up doing a summer research program funded by INSERC, and that was amazing. It gave me the opportunity to actually experience research without having to go to commit to going to grad school. And, you know, I started to work on this project where I was like, this is awesome. The summer ended. I still had another couple terms to finish my degree or another term to finish my degree, but I figured maybe grad school is the way to go. And it just opened up a lot of doors for me, not thinking of grad school as an option to go into grad school, being funded by the federal government to go, on scholarship, basically being paid to do my master’s and PhD. Those opportunities wouldn’t have been there had I not had those conversations with my professors.
Rebecca Gagan: That it opened, as you say, it opened up opportunities for you to– and it all started with– as you say, interacting differently with your professors and realizing that when profs always say this, and I think it’s hard though, for students to kind of embrace it when profs are like, “come to my office hours, come see me. You know, it’s part of my job”, but it’s also, you know, the job isn’t just to help with you know, problems with the material, it’s also to mentor students in the way that you were. And to expose students to new opportunities and to new avenues of research. And I think that what you’re sharing here, Celina is that, in having that kind of approach and being able to see your profs as people with whom you could have these kinds of conversations, it led to this moment, right where you are here at UVic, and you know, an Assistant Teaching Professor.
I guess, I feel just listening to your story, that it’s really amazing. Like it brings a lot of joy just to hear this story of, as you say, a long journey, but one in which you kept making shifts and also one in which you were open to change and to what might come. So even though you said, “okay, I’m going back, it’s just going to be two years, right?” But like, how amazing is that you did your two years and then it’s like no like I’m going to grad school, and I had all these other opportunities. And I feel like, as you say, a lot of that wouldn’t have happened had you not been willing to, in the first place, say, “I’m not going to do this degree that I’m not enjoying, I’m not going to do that. And then, oh, hey, maybe I could do this.” And then talking to your — and then having going– being kind of proactive, and talking to profs that then led to all these other opportunities that then furthered your career in these wonderful ways, like it’s joyful about it all.
Celina Berg: Yes, it’s important to have goals and a plan, but it’s also okay to step back and reflect on what’s happening and readjust those goals and those plans. And ultimately, I’m in a job that I love now. I love interacting with students, and it’s the reason I miss being on campus so much as I miss seeing their faces. Like I just– the classroom just seems so bizarre now, with the staring at these black screens and you don’t even get even just that furrow of a brow, or the tilt of a head where it’s okay, they didn’t get what I just said. Just missing it completely. And I just feel still lucky to be in a job that I love, but I am, even just talking to you today, it’s like, “wow, yeah, my path has taken this sort of zig-zaggy route.” At every point and every point, in turn, I’ve always stopped to reflect and go, okay, this is the plan. Do I need to readjust?
Rebecca Gagan: And, I think too, just thinking about your journey, Celina that I’m sure you know that summer after first year, and as you say, failing many courses and feeling like, “what am I going to do now? Like I can understand how as a student, that would feel like the end of the world, in a certain sense, like, I’ve screwed this up. What do I do now? Like how do I redeem this? That there was that moment of needing to, as you say, like shift readjust, and then you did it again after third year, but what you didn’t do, which I think is so significant here, wasn’t a case that you in your journey, just you know, “Okay. Well, I’m successful now.” And I put that in quotation marks because I think there’s so much emphasis on success and that you hold on at all costs, you whether all challenges, all difficulties and you just endure. And it’s that difference, as I said, between surviving and thriving, right? So, you chose not to do your degree that way, right?
Like you had those difficulties. You had those for sure, those challenges, where it’s like this is a really difficult moment. What am I going to do here? And it wasn’t that you said, you know, there’s a lot of pressure to just tough this out, or just keep going, and you didn’t do that. And it doesn’t– I guess what I’m trying to fly here is that there is that narrative of you love your job now. You’re happy. You had a long journey, but you got there, but that’s not really the narrative that we’re talking about here. What we’re talking about is that you had a journey that was really challenging and needed a lot of readjustment, a lot of taking steps back and reflecting, taking breaks, coming back, and now, the fact that you love your job and have gotten to this place, it’s the result of all of that work, all of those changes, and all of those choices and that you were making those choices for yourself and kind of being, I guess, like open to experiencing that difficulty, but also knowing that there were other choices so that you were, in my mind– like you made that choice to thrive. As I say, I think that takes courage in the midst of all of the pressures that students experience.
Celina Berg: Yeah. I think for me, again, just reflecting on this now. For me, the big thing was when I changed course or when I reflected and made a change in the plan that I had set; I didn’t ever see that as failure. I chose to see it as a choice. And I feel like for some students where they’ve set out to do a certain degree and have this certain expectation, and those expectations might come from themselves or from external sources. They feel like, you know, if they’re not enjoying it or it’s not what they’re liking, they feel that pressure to stick with that course of action. And if they don’t, that’s failure, and I would encourage people to step back and go; no, change is not failure; change is growth. And we, as humans, especially, for myself as a female in my early twenties, I changed and developed so much to imagine that at 17, I would know what I wanted to do for the rest of my life, which I thought I did. When I look back is just, that’s just silly, right?
Rebecca Gagan: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s so important. What you’re saying here, Celina, about reframing failure, right? Or like that, it’s not failure, like making a decision to not pursue a degree that you don’t enjoy. That’s not a failure, right? And it’s also, as you say about growth and making choices that and being flexible and changing that there is a way in which when you’re a student, it can absolutely feel like failure. And I certainly experienced this as a student, like just feeling shame around something not working out, how I thought it was, and that must mean that I suck. And that, I can’t do this. And that can feel really difficult, but as you say, it’s all growth.
It’s all learning, and the university doesn’t have to be structured on that success/ failure binary; that’s not how we have to see our narratives and that there is so much room and so much space for growth.
Celina Berg: And even we’re on the path where, you know, you’re enjoying this path, and that’s the path that you’re going to take for me, my undergrad was not smooth sailing. You know, once I was in computer science, it was a struggle, like the courses were hard, and like I said earlier, I was around other students that had much more experience than I did. And from my perspective seem to be getting it so much quicker than I was. And I was one of very few females in the classes, especially when I got to the upper-level courses. And it felt harder to connect sometimes and also feeling like I was out of place. So, there’s all of these little struggles that you’re going to fight, that you’re going to battle with, but reaching out for support and again, connecting with professors and other students can be helpful, but I also feel having confidence in your abilities, in your results, even in the context of your own learning, not in comparison to everybody else, is important. And I don’t know that I had that, even as a quote-unquote mature student.
Rebecca Gagan: And that kind of confidence, or a kind of rootedness, in yourself. That, too, is something that just takes time to develop. And it develops, I think, in part as a result of all of the work and changes and some of those challenges. That it’s — it can be really tough, as you say, to feel as if everyone else has it figured out, whether that’s the course material or life, and you’re still struggling. So, Celina, here’s a kind of a question maybe to end things off here, but if you were to talk with your undergrad self, and whether that’s the undergrad self from the first undergrad or the second undergrad, what might you say to that to that young woman?
Celina Berg: Wow. Yeah. I don’t know that she would’ve listened. You know, again, one of those things where sometimes you just got to hit that rock a couple times, that brick wall a couple times before you’re like, oh wow. The things that I think I didn’t do early on that I feel like had I done would’ve made my path maybe a little less as zig-zaggy.
You know, seeing my professors as sort of mentors/colleagues earlier on, in that connecting with them, you know, using them as a resource when I was stuck. I was so afraid, and for sure to go and admit that I didn’t know how to do something, so I’d see him struggle for hours on my own, trying to figure it out instead of just going and getting in a little bit of help, that was a time sink.
So that would be a really important piece that I would suggest for students. The other thing is, be curious. Be curious; want to learn for the sake of learning things that you’re interested in. And that will– you’ll forever be a lifelong learner if you’re always curious and you’ll always be working on the things that you love if you continue to investigate those things that you are interested in, that as much as our professors when we’re in classes are there to teach us and impart knowledge to us and — they can’t teach us everything, right? And you have to spend the time, and you have to be interested enough in the material to dig deeper into it and spend the time practicing and learning it. And again, it’s that coming back to that same thing; be curious.
Rebecca Gagan: Well, Celina, it sounds as if that piece of advice around curiosity and to stay curious is really speaking to that moment where you did change course a couple of times; that you were curious about computer science, even though you were doing a different job so that you were in a job. You were curious about computer science and so decided to start to investigate that. And what might that look like, right? To follow up on that path of knowledge, which has led you to this point. And to sort of follow what, as you say, what you’re curious about and what you’re interested in, even if that means leaving a degree about what you’re no longer curious. Like no, I think my curiosity on this subject has run out, but I think it’s so fascinating to think about letting that kind of lead you. And in that way, you’re leading, with both your heart and your mind at the same time, right? To the things that you are passionate about, that you care about, that you want to learn more about. And then this is a never-ending journey in a sense, right? Because you just, it keeps unfurling. And, who knows where it’s going to lead, but that’s the sort of surprise or the joy that I think I find in your story, that it had its challenges. Absolutely, but that there was this kind of joy in the unfolding of it all led you to this moment. And that is something just so, I think, inspiring and beautiful, not because as we’ve said, it’s this moment of triumph, but because it was this moment of really coming into yourself and what you wanted to do, and what you wanted to study. And that’s the kind of beauty or joy of it. Just thank you so much, Celina. For talking with me today, I’ve really enjoyed this conversation and learned a lot from it. So, I so appreciate you being here.
Celina Berg: Thank you, Rebecca. Honestly, I’m so busy, and I was thinking yesterday how I got to make time for Rebecca tomorrow, and I was trying to figure out where I was going to fit that in. But after having chatted with you, this has been a nice reflection and a nice step away from COVID and to reflect back on why I am where I am and how much I enjoy teaching and the students, so I appreciate you having me. That’s been fantastic.
Rebecca Gagan: Thanks so much, Celina. Take good care.
In next week’s episode of Waving, Not Drowning, I talk with Dr. Ireh Iyioha, an Assistant Professor in the faculty of law here at the University of Victoria. In this powerful and incredibly inspiring conversation, Ireh shares some words of support and wisdom about how to cope with not being seen, with not having your humanity recognized by others, not only in the classroom but elsewhere, and how to embrace and celebrate what she calls your natural stardom. I loved this conversation so much and learned so much from it. I cannot wait for you to hear it. I really hope that you’ll tune in. You can keep listening to episodes of Waving, Not Drowning on Anchor FM, Spotify, or wherever you stream your podcast. We’d love it if you would give us a like and a follow-on Instagram at UVic Bounce. Tune in next week for another great conversation.